talent ratings

Garry O'Neal · Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007, 21:09 (GMT) Post subject:

It's good news (I guess) that the new Voice123 will have a better rating system. But Freddie, you need to dump the current one immediately. That a client can give a voice talent, one he DID NOT HIRE, a bad rating, is idiotic. And I wonder how many talents, knowing in advance that some jerk out there could affect his or her ranking on a whim, would even sign with a company that allows such boneheadedness.

Garry O'Neal
www.neonsound.com

Amy Snively · Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007, 23:24 (GMT) Post subject:

So you're saying that if somebody posts an audition, and a REALLY bad demo comes through, he or she should not be able to rate that auditioner? Or if someone is awesome, but you just can't use them this time, you shouldn't be able to give them 4 stars?

Garry O'Neal · Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007, 23:45 (GMT) Post subject:

Steve Royal · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007, 00:38 (GMT) Post subject: Ratings?

Gary,
I couldn't agree with you more.
Any talent rating should be based on the quality of the voice talent's work.....not on their demo.

Clients could receive any number of unsuitable demos. If one comes through that they think is rubbish, all they have to do is avoid that voice in the future.

Conversely, if somebody submits a great demo, but the client can't use them on that occasion, they shouldn't be able to give them a rating...again, all the client has to do is keep an ear out for that voice talent in the future.

Giving ratings, good or bad, based on demos is basically giving the voice talent something for nothing or punishing them for nothing!

Steve Royal.

Caryn Clark · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007, 01:59 (GMT) Post subject:

Let me just say, in my case, I wasn't given a poor rating b/c my demo was "really bad"... I was dinged for not following directions. As I explained in a previous post, it was during my first month of membership on v123 two years ago. My error wasn't purposeful... the client never ever contacted me... they just scored my audition negatively.

My original post stated that I was surprised people answered leads for which they weren't perfectly suited or agreeable to the conditions (in other words - not following directions as I made the mistake of doing ie. people answering the razzie lead on Friday, quoting the rate they would charge when a rate was specified b/c they were assuming the seeker made an error)... b/c as I understand it, one could receive a negative rating for replying to a lead for which you aren't perfectly suited or agreeable to the conditions, which would hurt their standings in the talent search section.

I assume they could ding you if they just didn't like your demo... but that's an assumption.

I'm not knocking people that do respond to those leads and quote their (higher) rate... I was just surprised that so many people did respond even if they had a problem with the lead when they could be poorly rated for doing so. I thought more people knew about the rating/ranking system.

Allen Scofield · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007, 02:28 (GMT) Post subject:

J.S. Gilbert · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007, 17:53 (GMT) Post subject: J'accuse

My single biggest problem with V123 is that the posters are anonymous.
The single and only reason for this is because posters can be harrassed by talent. I can give you 50 reasons and many of them legal why this is perhaps the worst practice that anyone can do. I suggest that V123 drop the ability of postes to be anonymous and see if there is a sharp drop in postings. If so, I thin the ones remaining will be far greater to yield bookings.

IN any case, I suggest that V123 and anybody who isn't hip with the term "j'accuse" study up on their history. The practice is not just prejudicial but unethical. I'm not a lawyer, but a friend who is one raised his eyebrows when I explained the practise.

For example, if I wanted to tip the scales here, I could easily ask my clients who post for talent here to give everyone who auditions, save me a negative entry. (I don't do the postings usually, I get my clients to do it. I field the auditions and make recommendations)
You'll just have to take my word that despite my having listened to some really dreadful stuff, I have never been responsible for any rating - positive or negative.

Hmmmmm, I hope I didn't just send the new V123 back into Alpha with this post

Matt Prather · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007, 18:34 (GMT) Post subject:

But if a rating/ranking system (or analogue) is even necessary, why couldn't it work in a way similar to the "endorsement" feature over on LinkedIn? (If you're not familiar with this, take a look at www.linkedin.com)

The whole idea there is not that any person is "ranked" or "rated" --- and especially not arbitrarily, capriciously, or anonymously! Instead, if you have colleagues (also members of LinkedIn, of course) who are willing to really put in a good word for you for a particular gig or position, they can do so, and you gradually collect these endorsements. They also have the advantage of being much more personal, since the endorser is free to say anything at all about you ("It was great working with Matt --- he never had spinach in his teeth and he was usually sober!"), they have to give their identities, and you retain the ability to include or omit the endorsement on your profile. Obviously, it's to your advantage to be someone people are willing to endorse, but you're not punished or made to live in fear that somebody with an axe to grind is going to make mincemeat out of your profile....

Best,
Matt

J.S. Gilbert · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007, 19:10 (GMT) Post subject: Theoretically

Matt,
In theory, anything can work. My opinion is that the business model for LinkedIn and V123's business model can be compared similarly to a mattress and a Chrysler LeBaron. Both can be used by the same people and both may have similar components, but they are designed for entirely differnt purposes. There is little if any anonymity associated with LinkedIn and almost no direct compettiion for anything. It also focuses much more broadly across occupations, hobbies, opportunities and needs. Yes, V123 and LinkedIn share the fact that they are both internet based, but that might be about it.

I'd also like to point out that LinkedIn is relatively flawed in itself. I am approached regularly on LinkedIn by Indian and Dutch outsourcers and recruiters who I have nothing in common with wishing to invite me into their network. In some cases, I turn down invites from the same people every few months. Do I report them, now. And if you're going to tell me that feedback on eBay works, I got a bridge I can sell you. On eBay you don't give bad feedback because you don't want it back. Every buyer gets the same thing "AAAA rated buyer. Incredible." SO those of us who do business on eBay pretty much know that if you got less than 99% positives, then forget about it.

At some point this becomes a lot like Steve Martin in The Jerk when he utters the words "The new phone book's here! The new phone book's here! This is the kind of spontaneous publicity I need. My name in print. That really makes somebody. Things are going to start happening to me now!"

I wonder how many people with no understanding of v.o. - either hireres or talent thought the same thing when they tossed their hat into the V123 ring.

The real problem is that there are individuals whose marketing skills are 10 and v.o. skills are 1. They are more likely to benefit from your proposed system. It's also a pretty subjective thing. I've heard some "winning" auditions on here and I thought they stunk. I've heard some other auditions that I thought should have won and didn't. The people who post jobs on here already have the scales tipped way in their favor and there simply isn't enough of a profit margin to have to spend copious amounts of time verifying this, that and the other thing.

When I inquired about the other sites ranking system. Not that it matters, but I didn't do anything and when the site was originally published I was number 7 or 9 or something and I think I'm down to 2,678 now. Their response was that "people don't book any more jobs just because they're positined high up... It was a way for us to generate excitement and build up our database." They then had the gall to hold a v.o. awards program - of course only open to their enrolled talent and the winner of the Newcomer was somebody with 10 years experinece doing major animation work and their overall winner was in my opinion a newbie with average skills. Not that it's sour grapes, but that kind of activity doesn't foster community within groups of individuals who in some cases will do "anything" to get work. If you only got the opportunity to listen back and read the comments from the 200 or so people that respond to an average posting, you'd be singing a few octaves higher.

I'd like to see what other internet business models where 95% of the people are unqualified and totals of 200 people compete for a single $100 job. Are there any?

Caryn Clark · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007, 19:34 (GMT) Post subject:

In response to:

I'd like to see what other internet business models where 95% of the people are unqualified and totals of 200 people compete for a single $100 job. Are there any?

****

Don't you consider sites like v123 a stepping stone? I don't think this business model was intended for the seasoned voice actor to use as a major means for work. I do know very seasoned vo actors on here, and they audition for things when they have time, but they're not here on the boards complaining about it either when they don't get the job. They take it for what it's worth.

Again, I think this site/business model was intended for as a stepping stone, or maybe in some cases for the seasoned actor, a back up to kinda audition when they have time, and if they land the job, great, if not, ok.

Personally, I don't get much work from this site. And, any work I have received has been from private leads only, thus my concern with the talent rating system and where I appear in the database search. But, I'm on v123 b/c a) it's reasonably priced for what I get and b) at least I get some practice cutting auditions. Yes, it could be better, and yes, I think there are people on here with even less experience than I (I used to be one of those people with a Radio Shack mic plugged into my computer - I actually got more work then), but I assume they're being weeded out b/c they aren't getting work. Eventually they'll either decide to invest the time and money to try to make this a career (no small investment as you know), or they'll give up eventually. I do agree, tho, there are too many talents on this site... but the more I've thought about it, I only see that as a problem from a database search standpoint, not a public lead standpoint, really.

BTW, I was one of those people nominated for one of those awards that you don't agree with for best new voice and best personal branding... so I don't have an issue with having an awards program, obviously. I think a lot of this business IS being able to market yourself appropriately. Anyway, maybe awards programs should be a different thread.

John Bigl · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007, 20:34 (GMT) Post subject: the thread continues

J.S. Gilbert

If you take a look, you'll see that I joined V123 in 2003. My first year or two here, this was most definitely not a place for newbies. I booked damn good work at damn good rates and I saw a system work. I also hired other talent from here and overall I had far greater satisfaction than I have had as of late. For whatever reason, everyone and their grandmother nowadays is either a professional poker player or thinks they should be in voiceover.

Now if V123 has changed their mind and wants to make this into a kindergarten, then just let them tell me and the other pros who were "invited" here when this thing started to go take a hike. I and many others are hoiping that this can be a professional site once again. Obviously, this is a business. In order to succeed, V123 has to keep their talent and talent seekers happy. I advocate that in all of my posts. I point out that it is a challenge for them and I try to support this being a place for positive change and growth. Sometimes my approach is warm, othertimes sarcastic and ocassionally when I feel the message aint getting through it can even seem nasty. This comes from this being something I am very, very passionate about. I take no high ground or mid ground or low ground. I'll always call it as I sees it.

I never said that anybody "new" should go away. That is unless I suggested they go away and learn how to be voice actors first.

This is a "stepping stone"? Nowhere is that implied or suggested and if I had the original emails that "invited" me here, you would know that this is far from the truth. I booked a national commercial here 1 month after joining in 1983 that alone could pay for me to be part of this community for many years. I resent that this place has become a laughing stock and I may be considered less of a talent becuase I not only choose to stay here but make my voice heard.

If the inmates want to take over the asylum, you'll find I will not go gently into the good night.

Caryn Clark · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007, 21:28 (GMT) Post subject:

So, we are from two ends of the spectrum. Reading your last post really does help me understand your viewpoint.

I'm guessing from v123's standpoint, quantity is better than quality -- or let's just say that they're trying to be all things to all people (from both a talent and seeker standpoint, given that there are the less experienced talents and there are also leads that are just ridiculous). That said, I can understand why the original invitees may not be happy about this.

From what I've read/heard, the new version will be better for everyone of all abilities (from a talent standpoint) and budgets (from a seeker standpoint). But until then, everything's fair game. I guess if seasoned actors didn't like it, they could have decided to go elsewhere. To me, it's a stepping stone. That may not have been what was originally intended, but that's what I think it's evolved into. And, I'm glad to have been on this site - I've landed some great gigs from this site that have allowed me to gain really great experience.

Again, I'll point out, they were only from private leads - not public leads. Which is why I depend on the database search. And which is why I do agree there are too many people on the site.

That said, allowing a seeker to rate a talent without hiring him, affecting the standings in the database search, is no good!! Smile

Allen Brown · Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007, 01:59 (GMT) Post subject:

It's been awhile since I hired voices from this site. But, as I remember the "rating" system, it was sort of like. "Hey, I like this gal and want to put her on my preferred list." I guess I saw it as building a tickler file of talent I liked. And, well, yes - a bad audition might put you in the bottom or OUT of the tickler file. Isn't that the way it works? Maybe I just don't remember.

If that's the way it works, I see no harm in it as long as the rating only affects that one job seeker's database. If it lowers the talent's rating across the board for all seekers....that's wrong.

Using software to make art good. Using software to make artistic decisions BAD!

Allen Brown - Professional Poker Player (thanks JS..you are right on!)

Caryn Clark · Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007, 16:54 (GMT) Post subject:

I was told that it does affect your standings across the database when any seeker is searching.... it's one of the reasons I was showing up on page 27 in the search.

Smile

We'll see what the new system brings... it sounds like this won't be an issue.

Thanks for the healthy discussions!